Chatting with Dire Tladi

Welcome to the latest interview of the Völkerrechtsblog’s symposium ‘The Person behind the Academic’! With us we have Judge Dire Tladi, and through the following questions, we will try to get a glimpse of his interests, sources of inspiration and habits.

Welcome Judge Tladi and thank you very much for accepting our invitation!

May I first ask what it was that brought you to academia and what made you stay?

What brought me to academia is actually very interesting. I was offered a job that I didn’t apply for. It happened at the beginning of the transition from apartheid to democracy in South Africa. My university, the University of Pretoria, had been a traditionally all white university; the students were white, the academic staff were white and the admin staff were all white. In the mid-1990s – in fact, to be specific, I think 1996 or 1997 – the law faculty wanted to transform, not just in terms of policies and politics, but also in terms of its staff composition. I was a young student – a pretty good student – in the final year of my studies, and I remember that I was walking somewhere, when one professor, Prof Frans Viljoen, walked up to me and, out of the blue, said: ‘Mr. Tladi, would you want to come and work with us?’. And so, just like that on the street, I was offered a job! Junior lecturer the position was called, and I would be teaching legal history, Roman Law and introduction to law. So, that’s how I got in. It was essentially that I was offered the post. In fairness, I would still have wanted to be an academic, but how I got in was that I was offered this position out of the blue and unexpectedly.

Why did I stay? I stayed because I felt at home; at heart I always knew that I was an academic. I left briefly for a period of about 9 years or so, when I worked for the government. But even when I left, I knew I would come back. I knew that academia was my home, where the heart was.

What would you say is the most difficult part of the academic life?

I don’t know, actually, to be honest with you. I mean, there are many parts of academic life that I don’t like, but I don’t know that they’re difficult; I just don’t like them. I don’t like marking, you know, grading papers. I don’t like the admin, but it’s part of the job and so you have to do it. But it is not necessarily difficult. And by the way, as you progress in the academic staircase you have to do less and less of the things that you don’t like. But I guess, if I really had to say something, I would say learning to be yourself. There’s a lot of pressure on young academics to conform to a particular way of being. I think learning to be yourself is perhaps the most difficult part.

If you were not an academic (and now an ICJ judge), what would you be?

Oh, this one is very easy! I know well the answer to what I wanted to be when I was younger, before I wanted to be a lawyer. I wanted to be one of two things: a basketball player or an actor; that would have been my first answer. But now, as I was beginning to answer, I realized that there’s a different way that one could answer the question. Because, while those are the two things that I really wanted to be when I was younger, I guess I could also have become something else; I could have become a writer because I like writing. I guess that’s also a possibility. But essentially those first two, I could have been a basketball star somewhere or at least I would have wanted to be one, or but more likely a basketball bench player… Who knows? Or an actor…I played basketball as a kid and I took acting classes.

That’s very interesting… I wouldn’t have expected that, but perhaps that is because I haven’t met you in person. Good to know! Now, what are three texts that you would wish all academics working on international law would read?

The first is one of my favourite international law books, Thomas Franck’s ‘Fairness in International Law and Institutions’. When I was a diplomat, I used to quote it all the time! I think it’s just a great book that reminds us that international law can be much more than it is! So that’s one text. Then, I would wish that people would read, judge Weeramantry’s dissenting opinion in the Nuclear Weapons advisory opinion. And then, as to the third text, John Dugard wrote his memoirs recently, I think 2 or 3 years ago, no much longer. The book is called ‘Confronting Apartheid’, and it is basically about his contribution to the fight against apartheid in three different places in South Africa, Namibia, and Palestine. So, these are the three texts that I would encourage international lawyers to read.

These are very interesting readings that we could think about while putting together our reading lists! My next question would be: Would you say that your upbringing has had an impact on your research interests or your perception of justice?

I think so, absolutely! I think that everyone’s upbringing probably influences them in some way or the other way. Growing up in a country that was at the time most known for injustice instils a desire for you to see the world transformed into a better place. In the world that I live in to this day, in my own country, there is injustice.  The injustice is different now. It is not legislated injustice, but it is still injustice, in the sense that there are some in the my country who are poor, and there are others in that same country that have more than they could ever need. And the world is exactly the same. And so seeing all of these things has really influenced me. You know, when people ask me, ‘what do you think describes your basic approach to international law?’, I say, it is this notion that international law should be creating a better world for all; that international law should have as its central concern the most marginalised; that those that are most underprivileged, those that are most in the margins are uplifted by international law. And, it’s all because of my upbringing; or at least the circumstances of my upbringing, I think, have had a huge influence on that.

What is your favourite place to read and write? What is always near you when you read and write?

Let me answer the second question first because it’s easier to answer. It is, always something to drink, whether it is coffee, a tot of whiskey, wine, whatever to drink. The first question is a little more difficult because it depends. It depends on whether I am reading or writing, and when it comes to reading, it also depends on what I am reading. If I’m reading fiction, then my favourite place to read is in my bed. There’s no better place to read fiction than when you’re lying down in your bed, where the fiction can transport you to places unimaginable, and by the way, I read a lot of fiction. In terms of writing, it’s different places. I like to go to cafes and restaurants. In fact, in one day, if I’m in South Africa especially, I could find myself writing in three or four different restaurants or cafes, because I like to be inspired by what’s around me, and I like to change environment. And then if I am reading something academic, then it is probably the same places that I like to write. So, I like to sort of move around.

What is an energy and inspiration booster, at times when you have none?

In the past it used to be running, but I don’t do much running anymore. Now, I guess it will be just playing music. In fact, come to think of it, when I ran, I always listened to music. So, yes, music. I think playing music is a thing that sort of gets you up.

What type of music do you like to listen to?

I can tell you what I have on my iTunes  playlist right now. If I go to my library, I have various playlists, one of which I have called ‘Eclectic’. This one starts with a song from Portugal, called Feet it Still. The next song is by Gary B. B. Coleman. It’s actually one of my favourite songs, a blues classic, its called Sky is Crying. Then I’ve got Gnarls Barkley, Sam Smith… I’ve got Maroon, Queen and Lenny Kravitz. I’ve got Jay-Z, Janet Jackson, Simply Red, Sting… So, as you hear, I just listen to whatever music I like without thinking about genres.

That’s very interesting. Thanks so much for sharing!

That was actually my favourite question.

Thank you so much. I used to have many more questions of this type, but I was not sure if academics actually enjoy answering these questions, so I have just removed them.

You should reinsert them!

Thank you, I will! So, then my next question would be: Have you ever drawn influence from any form of art in your work? Is there anything artistic about teaching or writing academic texts?

Not directly from particular art forms or art pieces… Actually, that’s not completely because, recently, in recent individual opinions I have drawn inspiration from specific works including Shakespeare and Orwell. But generally I do draw inspiration from art in general.

So, when I write, I’m not sure how successful I am, but I try to make sure that the things I write are written in an easy, readable voice, which hopefully doesn’t have the strictness or the staleness of academic writing. In that sense, in general, when I write, I draw inspiration from more creative forms of writing. And I try to have that influence in the things that I write, whether it’s an academic article or book, or even now in my capacity as a judge, in my separate opinions, declarations, and so on. If I were to draft a judgment for the Court, I probably would not adopt such a style. But in things that I write, which are reflective of me, I try to allow a creative spirit to influence me.

What similarities do you have with Tolamo Moagi, the main character of your novels?

Well, he’s a very flawed gentleman, but I think good at heart. And I think that’s how I would describe myself. I am very flawed as a human being, but I try to be a good person. And I guess there’s not much more that you can ask from someone.

Which of your academic publications is your favourite one? And which of them is your least favourite?

I will start with my least favourite. It’s an article I wrote in 2009 or 2010, which has a very fiery title, something like, ‘The African Union and the ICC: The battle for the soul of international law’, in the South African Yearbook of International Law. It’s an article that is quoted a lot, and that’s one of the reasons I don’t like it. I think it was an overly simplistic take on the situation.

And my favourite article is actually about a related issue, which was written when I was a lot more mature as an academic, I think, in 2016 or 2017. I can’t remember. It’s in the German Yearbook of International Law, and is titled ‘Of Heroes and Villains, Angels and Demons: The ICC-AU Tension Revisited’. And there you can already hear the connection with literature and art.

Of course. Which advice would you give to early career scholars reading this interview?

The most important thing is, enjoy what you do. You have to enjoy it. If you enjoy it, you will do well at it. That’s the basic idea. I know that people will tell you ‘Τhink about life work balance!’, or, you know, ‘Work hard!’. Ultimately, what determines everything is how much you enjoy it. That also should influence your work life balance. Because obviously, if you enjoy it, then it doesn’t feel like work. So, you do more of it but enjoy what you do. I always find that human beings pour themselves into things that they enjoy. And when you enjoy it, when you pour yourself into it, then what you get in return is a lot. So that’s my advice. Enjoy it!

Have you experienced or witnessed discrimination in academic circles? How have you reacted to these instances?

Yes, I have witnessed. You know, I was an academic in the times when racism and sexism were rife. I have experienced this directed at me, and, of course, I’ve stood up against it as I think we should. And I’ve experienced it when it was directed at others. I have a little chip on my shoulder and am, even at this stage of my career very sensitive to differential treatment, even when justified on the basis of so-called seniority. I think this comes from days when I was discriminated against and felt powerless to act.

If you could, which unspoken rule of academia would you instantly erase?

I’m not sure. I didn’t even know there were unspoken rules… I didn’t even know there were rules in academia… I guess one that I can think of, and I’m not even sure if this is unwritten (it might be written somewhere in some way) is the rule to publish in particular journals; the notion that there are some journals that are better than others, and some publication houses that are better than others. I think, if I could, I would get rid of that one and make sure that there is a space for all of us. I think I can say this now that I am at the point where this probably doesn’t affect me that much, but it would affect others. This hierarchization of publication houses really has the effect of preventing diversity of thoughts, but also it has the effect of keeping young people out. So, I would erase this notion that if you publish in some journals, then your reputation will be sky-high. It should be the quality of the publication, regardless of where it is, that ultimately determines this.

Would you like to share with us a ‘sacrifice’ that you have made for your work? Do you regret it?

I haven’t made a sacrifice; I have to be honest. I haven’t had to because, again, as I said to you, I have enjoyed what I have done. And so, it hasn’t felt like a burden. Of course, I wish I had spent more time with my kids, but I have spent a lot of time with my kids. We were talking the other day with my kids, and I told them, the first time I missed any of their birthdays, they were already in their twenties. It’s, of course, anecdotal, but I think it says something. I have worked so hard in academia because I have enjoyed it. And because of that, it hasn’t felt like a sacrifice. And because of the nature of academia, I have been able to set my agenda, and ensure presence when I needed to be present.

I think that this will be our last question actually: Ideally, whom would you want to find waiting for a meeting with you outside your office next Monday?

It is not a particular person, but it is a movie director who says: ‘I’ve come here because I would like to discuss a movie contract for your novel Sins of the Father’. That would make my Monday!

That sounds amazing. I will keep my fingers crossed!

Sissy, if you can make that happen on Monday, I will owe you forever.

We’ll advertise the interview and maybe this Monday or next Monday, someone might do!

Who knows?

Thank you very much for taking the time on a Saturday to do this interview and for your interesting answers to our questions, which I am sure will be inspiring for many readers!

Thank you!