{"id":25187,"date":"2025-06-13T08:00:56","date_gmt":"2025-06-13T06:00:56","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/voelkerrechtsblog.org\/de\/?p=25187"},"modified":"2025-11-14T15:07:54","modified_gmt":"2025-11-14T14:07:54","slug":"chatting-with-tania-ixchel-atilano","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/voelkerrechtsblog.org\/de\/chatting-with-tania-ixchel-atilano\/","title":{"rendered":"Chatting with Tania Ixchel Atilano"},"content":{"rendered":"

Welcome to the <\/strong>latest<\/strong> interview of the V\u00f6lkerrechtsblog<\/strong>\u2019s<\/strong> symposium \u2018The Person behind the Academic\u2019! With us we have <\/strong>Dr<\/strong>. <\/strong>Tania Ixchel Atilano<\/strong>, and through the following <\/strong>questions<\/strong>, we will try to get a glimpse of <\/strong>her<\/strong> interests, sources of inspiration and habits. <\/strong><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

Welcome and thank you<\/strong> very much<\/strong> for accepting our invitation!<\/strong><\/p>\n

Thank you, Sissy for considering me for this series!!! I am really very honoured to be along so many accomplished scholars!!<\/p>\n

It\u2019s a great pleasure to have you in the symposium!<\/strong><\/p>\n

M<\/strong>ay I first ask<\/strong>\u00a0<\/strong>what it was that brought you to academia and what made you stay?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I guess like many others, I didn\u2019t exactly plan on being in academia,\u00a0and I would have probably stayed in Mexico, if it had not been that I was always interested in different cultures and ways of thinking.\u00a0And so,\u00a0during high school I decided to start learning something\u00a0that felt somewhat exotic at the time, especially in a place like Mexico where American culture is so dominant: German.\u00a0Now that I think about it, the\u00a0Goethe Institut<\/em> in Mexico City, was a sort of place where the utopian spirit of the end of the nineties could be intensely felt.\u00a0Maybe that had something to do with the optimism that followed German reunification, which seemed to carry a broader promise of a world without borders. The teachers\u00a0were mostly German and some of them were also very optimistic, while others sometimes talked about their experience as children after the war. That left a very strong impression on me. The building wasn\u2019t large but it brimmed with cultural life, with\u00a0art exhibitions hanging on the walls,\u00a0screenings of Wim Wenders\u2019 films, or readings of authors like Elfriede Jelinek and G\u00fcnter Grass. I remember the film So weit, so nah!<\/em> (Faraway, So Close!<\/em>) by Wim Wenders left a lasting impression on us. The fact that the title song (Faraway, So Close!<\/em>) was performed by U2, and that the music video revolved around Berlin, added another layer of fascination. In retrospect, U2\u2019s tribute to German reunification makes sense, given that territorial division in Ireland has been a major historical and political issue. It might now seem naive or even banal given the actual situation of the world, but back then, in a faraway place from Germany such as Mexico City, for us teenagers learning German, the quotes from Wenders\u2019 films, the image of Trabis<\/em> hanging above the stage during U2\u2019s Achtung Baby<\/em> tour concerts \u2013 all of it \u2013 symbolized the possibility of a different and peaceful world.\u00a0Coincidentally, back then the director of the Goethe Institut<\/em> in Mexico City was Bernd Scherer who later became intendant of the Haus der Kulturen der Welt<\/em> in Berlin. It\u2019s weird, but in all these amazing events at the HKW, which I attended while writing my dissertation, like the Anthropoz\u00e4n<\/em> Projekt<\/em> or Now is the time of Monsters<\/em>, I felt something familiar \u2013 maybe it was Bernd Scherer\u2019s imprint or simply the big German cultural tradition reflected.<\/p>\n

But back to law\u2026During my studies I was especially interested in criminal law \u2013 a field with the extraordinary power to deprive individuals of their liberty. The paradox of using state-sanctioned force to respond to harm has always intrigued me. Because after all, imprisonment is in itself a form of violence. What\u2019s more, the effects of a crime \u2014 and of criminal punishment \u2014 reach far beyond the victim and the perpetrator. Families and communities are drawn into the consequences.<\/p>\n

For some reason Mexican criminal lawyers are big admirers of German \u201cStrafrechtstheorie\u201d (criminal law theory), and so since I already knew some German, I decided to go direct to the sources of German criminal law theory and so I embarked on\u00a0an LLM at the LMU in M\u00fcnchen. When I returned to Mexico, I worked at the Public Prosecutor\u2019s Office in Mexico City, where I was lucky to collaborate with prominent criminal law academics, like Dr.\u202fMiguel Ontiveros Alonso, (a former student of Claus Roxin). Through him, I met Professor Francisco Mu\u00f1oz Conde and both kind of convinced me to return to Germany and pursue a doctoral degree. I was fortunate to receive a scholarship from the Deutscher Akademischer Austauschdienst (DAAD), which brought me to Berlin \u2014 and the dissertation project led to another\u2026 and so, here I am.<\/p>\n

If you were not an academic, what would you be?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I think I would have worked as a criminal defense lawyer or perhaps in labor law. Outside the legal field, I\u2019ve always been drawn to history, so I imagine I\u2019d enjoy being a history teacher.<\/p>\n

How did your research interest in <\/strong>the history of international law and international criminal law<\/strong> arise<\/strong>?<\/strong><\/p>\n

While working at the Public Prosecutor\u2019s Office in the mid-2000s, the so-called \u201cwar on drugs\u201d was initiated by former President Calder\u00f3n.\u00a0Violence and the level of cruelty inflicted rose dramatically. It also intrigued me that from newspaper reports the number of civilian casualties far exceeded those of public security or military personnel.<\/p>\n

It occurred to me that International Criminal Law (ICL) might offer useful analytical tools to make sense of the violence unfolding in Mexico, particularly in terms of disentangling the web of criminal responsibility, uncovering corruption, and addressing impunity. And so, the magnitude and complexity of the situation raised urgent questions that led me to write a dissertation on how ICL could be implemented within the Mexican legal system.\u00a0I was very fortunate\u00a0to write the dissertation under the supervision of Professor Gerhard Werle, whose lectures and scholarship influenced my thinking on the subject\u00a0a lot.<\/p>\n

In particular, I attended his course on the history of international criminal law, where he made extensive use of primary sources. His historically grounded approach \u2013 as seen in works like Auschwitz vor Gericht<\/em> \u2013 left a lasting impact on the way I understand both international law, international criminal law and international humanitarian law. Perhaps even unconsciously, his methodology encouraged me to think more deeply about the historical contexts in which legal concepts develop.<\/p>\n

While conducting research for my dissertation, I also came across fascinating 19th-century legal materials from Mexico regarding the laws of war. These sources reveal \u2013 in my view \u2013 a largely overlooked chapter in Mexican history;\u00a0one that reveals a rich, but underexplored, relationship between gaining independence, state-building, codification\u00a0and international law.\u00a0Especially how international law was invoked to be part of the so- called \u201ccivilized nations\u201d. The primary sources I found, strongly resonated to Arnulf Becker Lorca\u2019s Mestizo International Law<\/em>, which helped me connect the dots and gave me a new lens through which to understand these 19th century materials. It was through this process that my interest in the history of international law began to grow more intentionally.<\/p>\n

Finally, what has struck me the most is how many of the arguments made in 19th-century Mexico \u2013 particularly those concerning equal sovereignty and non-intervention \u2013 continue to echo across the Global South today, especially in efforts to contest Western hegemony. In this regard, international law appears as an unfinished promise: a project of emancipation and recognition that began with the first wave of decolonization in the 1820s, and one that still remains incomplete.<\/p>\n

Which are three texts that you would wish all academics working on international law would read?<\/strong><\/p>\n

In general, I believe academics working on international law would benefit enormously from reading more broadly across the humanities. I understand time is limited, but developing a more humanistic approach to international law helps remind us that legal frameworks \u2013 or their absence \u2013 have impacts on human lives.<\/p>\n

First, I would recommend The Broken Spears<\/em><\/u><\/a>\u00a0(La visi\u00f3n de los vencidos), a collection of Nahua (Aztec) accounts of the Spanish conquest. It\u2019s a powerful record of what it meant to be \u201cconquered\u201d and a vivid depiction of the violence that conquest unleashed \u2013 not only in material but also cultural and spiritual terms. It helps us question categories like \u201cdiscovery,\u201d \u201ccivilization,\u201d or \u201cthe new world\u201d, and reflect on how sovereignty was constructed through the victors and Eurocentric lens. For international law, it is a reminder of the erased voices that still haunt the discipline\u2019s foundations.<\/p>\n

Second, I would suggest The Sentimental Life of International Law<\/em><\/u><\/a> by Gerry Simpson. This book shows how we can think and write about international law differently, bringing in literature, aesthetic form, and emotion. It\u2019s an invitation to engage international law not just as a rigid framework but as a cultural and imaginative practice.<\/p>\n

Third, Fantomas contra los vampiros multinacionales<\/em> (Fantomas Versus the Multinational Vampires: An Attainable Utopia<\/em><\/u><\/a>) by Julio Cort\u00e1zar. Cort\u00e1zar, an Argentinian novelist and central figure of the Latin American literary boom, was also part of the Second Russell Tribunal, which investigated human rights violations in Latin America under dictatorship, like Chile, Brazil, Colombia. Disappointed that the tribunal\u2019s findings were largely ignored by the media,\u00a0Cort\u00e1zar had the idea of inserting the tribunal\u2019s narrative into an already published Fantomas<\/em> comic, the\u00a0plot of which revolves around a conspiracy by multinational corporations to burn books around the world. He rewrote the story, layering it with meta-narratives and framing himself as a character within the text, alongside real-life intellectuals like Susan Sontag and Alberto Moravia. At the end, Cort\u00e1zar included the full judgment (where multinationals were also found guilty) of the Second Russell Tribunal as an epilogue. The result is an unconventional work that demonstrates how the language of international law can be appropriated and reimagined by novelists and artists, as well as how they can creatively reach broader publics.<\/p>\n

Each of these works, in different ways, show how international law intersects with memory, narrative, emotions and the struggle over meaning. They are reminders that international law does not exist in a vacuum \u2013 it is always entangled with culture, history, and power.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

What is your favourite place to read and write? What is always near you when you read and write?<\/strong><\/p>\n

It\u2019s always great to read and write with a nice perspective, it could be a glimpse to a park, a tree, or simply the sky. Near me, are always my notebook, pencils and color markers to write notes and underline the interesting or relevant parts.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

What is an energy and inspiration booster, at times when you have none?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Lately, I\u2019ve been listening to the podcast\u00a0Fly on the Wall<\/em><\/u><\/a> hosted by former Saturday Night Live<\/em> cast members Dana Carvey and Dave Spade. They speak very openly about their experiences on the iconic live comedy show, the competitive effort, the struggles, missteps, and what it really meant to be part of that world.<\/p>\n

Sometimes, I feel that academia is a lot like Saturday Night Live<\/em>: it\u2019s highly competitive to get in, hard to stay, and it\u2019s often bound up with insecurity, anxiety, and uncertainty, but also with the deep satisfaction of achieving something meaningful and creative.<\/p>\n

What I find most inspiring is how legendary presenters and comedians like Jerry Seinfeld<\/u><\/a> or Conan O\u2019Brien<\/u><\/a> speak so humbly about their failures, or how much luck played a role in their success. Academia would be a much healthier environment if we could talk just as openly about trying, failing, and eventually succeeding.<\/p>\n

I\u2019m also struck by how much effort goes into something that appears effortless, how much these comedians rehearse, refine, and analyze in order to make a single joke land. They think about timing, structure, the rhythm of a punchline, and how to hold an audience\u2019s attention. In a way, it\u2019s not that different from what academics do when preparing lectures, writing papers, or presenting ideas: we work hard to make something complex understandable and engaging.<\/p>\n

It\u2019s surprising \u2013\u00a0and oddly comforting \u2013 to realize that even laughter takes a lot of work.<\/p>\n

Also, for any woman struggling with academic life or a legal career far from home, I find the story of Margarete Berent<\/u><\/a> especially inspiring. She was a Jewish German jurist who fled Nazi Germany and rebuilt her life in the US. Despite incredible obstacles, she never gave up\u2014and at the age of 63 (!!!) she was finally admitted to the US bar to practice law. She then worked in the legal department of the New York City administration until she was 78. This also puts to the front the theme of age in legal Academia\u2026 should it be a burden to be older?<\/p>\n

Have you ever drawn influence from any form of art in your work? Is there anything artistic about<\/strong> teaching or<\/strong> writing academic texts?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Yes, especially in legal history, I\u2019ve found art to be an incredibly valuable resource. Art can trigger curiosity, but also convey knowledge in ways that legal texts alone often can\u2019t. It offers an extra layer \u2013 a kind of living<\/em> layer \u2013 of insight into what the law means or meant in the past, or how it was experienced. By looking closely at an image or through literature, we can access the emotional and historical context in which certain legal ideas emerged. An artwork can serve as a living testimony \u2013\u00a0whether of an event, an impression, or the artist\u2019s intention. I believe international lawyers could benefit greatly from this broader, more interdisciplinary lens.<\/p>\n

Which of your publications is your favourite one? And which of them is your least favourite?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Oh, that\u2019s a hard one, because I am still building on my scholarship.<\/strong> I think my favourite is the piece I wrote on \u00c9douard Manet\u2019s series The Execution of Maximilian<\/em>, which was published in a wonderful volume edited by Prof. Giovanni Rossi and Pietro Schir\u00f3 entitled Law and art in the 19th Century<\/u>. <\/u><\/a><\/p>\n

The paintings of Manet are not only visually striking, but they also open a fascinating window into the history of the laws of war, republicanism, and the struggle for sovereignty and non-intervention in mid-19th century Latin America \u2014 all conveyed through the lens of a French artist. They offer an unexpected and powerful perspective on how international legal and political ideas were interpreted and represented beyond legal texts.<\/p>\n

If you could, which advice would you give to yourself at the earl<\/strong>ier<\/strong> stages of your career?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Do not underestimate your own ideas.<\/p>\n

If you could, which unspoken rule of academia would you instantly erase?<\/strong><\/p>\n

I would say the rigid hierarchies that still shape academic culture. These unspoken rules often create unequal opportunities \u2014 especially for those coming from different academic systems or cultural backgrounds, where the norms around hierarchy and protocol may be entirely unfamiliar or unclear.<\/p>\n

Formalities vary widely across countries and disciplines. What is considered respectful in one context might seem distant or confusing in another \u2014 and this becomes even more difficult when you’re navigating it all in a foreign language. The fear of making a cultural or linguistic misstep can be paralyzing.<\/p>\n

I believe academia would benefit from softening these structures and focusing more on collegiality, openness, and kindness. I\u2019m convinced that scholarship and scientific exchange would benefit from a environment where people feel safe and welcomed, not anxious about unintentionally breaking protocol.<\/p>\n

In addition, if we are serious about achieving gender equality in academia, we need to speak more openly about motherhood, caregiving, and academic careers. Succeeding in academia often requires not only institutional support, but also a great deal of understanding and flexibility from one’s partner \u2014 and patience from one’s children. Perhaps someone should publish a book titled The Sentimental Life of Moms<\/em> (or Moms to be)<\/em> in Legal Academia<\/em>, where junior and senior scholars alike could share their experiences and advice. (I\u2019m joking about the title, but not about the idea.)<\/p>\n

There\u2019s a wonderful anthology: The Long Devotion. Poets Writing Motherhood<\/u><\/a>, which is about poets and writers and the challenges of writing in the midst of parenting, single parenting or seeking to become a parent. Maybe such an anthology could serve as inspiration.<\/p>\n

I could only second how interesting this would be \u2026 We have briefly read about other interviewees\u2019 <\/strong>experiences of <\/strong>writing legendary articles<\/strong><\/u><\/a> or <\/strong>starting their habilitation<\/strong><\/u><\/a> while pregnant, but <\/strong>a<\/strong>n <\/strong>extensive <\/strong>anthology<\/strong> on navigating legal academia as a (potential) mother<\/strong> is certainly <\/strong>still <\/strong>missing from existing literature! Perhaps next year\u2019s \u2018<\/strong>Women in International Law<\/strong><\/u><\/a>\u2019 symposium of our blog could be a first step to that end! <\/strong>We can talk about this further in due course<\/strong>!<\/strong><\/p>\n

My next question would be, h<\/strong>ave you <\/strong>experienced or <\/strong>witnessed <\/strong>discrimination in academic circles? H<\/strong>ow h<\/strong>ave you <\/strong>reacted to <\/strong>these instances? <\/strong><\/p>\n

Overall, my experience in academic circles has been very positive and welcoming. I\u2019ve had the chance and privilege to meet a lot of inspiring and amazing people from all over the world, and I consider myself lucky to have always felt welcome.<\/p>\n

A great example is the enthusiastic support I\u2019ve received from the Arbeitskreis junger V\u00f6lkerrechtler<\/em>*innen<\/em> (AjV) in organizing this year\u2019s bi-annual conference, along a genuinely plural and diverse organizing committee \u2014 and the University of Zurich, especially Prof. Elisabetta Fiocchi and Prof. Oliver Diggelmann, has been incredibly supportive of the initiative.<\/p>\n

Regardless my positive experience in academia, I\u2019m very aware of how important it is to create inclusive academic spaces.\u00a0Maybe it\u2019s because I have experienced discrimination in everyday life that I understand how powerful \u2014 and necessary \u2014 it is to build environments where everyone truly feels that they belong.<\/p>\n

Ideally, whom would you want to find waiting for a meeting with you outside your office next Monday?<\/strong><\/p>\n

It would be pretty cool to meet the German writer Juli Zeh for lunch. She is also a lawyer, so it would be fascinating to exchange views, and I\u2019d love to know more about her inspirations to write.<\/p>\n

If Juli Zeh doesn\u2019t show up, I\u2019d be thrilled to find historian Greg Grandin instead. From an interview he gave to\u00a0Daniel Steinmetz-Jenkins<\/u><\/a>, I learned about his new book America, Am\u00e9rica<\/em>, where he argues that 19th-century Latin America shaped international law in surprising ways. That sounds wild and exciting \u2014 I\u2019d really want to hear more about it.<\/p>\n

What are you working on currently? What may we anticipate in the near future?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Together with Professor Elisabetta Fiocchi Malaspina, I\u2019m co-editing a symposium for the Review of the International Red Cross<\/em>, which brings together contributions that expand the history(\/ies) of international humanitarian law. The goal is not only to uncover overlooked or forgotten narratives, but also to engage with unconventional methodologies and perspectives. We hope it will be published later this year \u2013 so stay tuned!<\/p>\n

And of course, there\u2019s the upcoming AjV conference at the University of Zurich, themed Post Hegemonic International Law?<\/em><\/u>\u00a0<\/u><\/a> It\u2019s a very timely and pressing topic, and the Call for Papers is currently open. We\u2019re looking forward to receiving a wide range of exciting abstracts.<\/p>\n

Thank you very much<\/strong>,<\/strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Dr.<\/strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Ixchel <\/strong>Atilano<\/strong>,<\/strong> for participating in our symposium and <\/strong>for having taken the time to respond to our questions!<\/strong><\/p>\n

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Welcome to the latest interview of the V\u00f6lkerrechtsblog\u2019s symposium \u2018The Person behind the Academic\u2019! With us we have Dr. Tania Ixchel Atilano, and through the following questions, we will try to get a glimpse of her interests, sources of inspiration and habits.   Welcome and thank you very much for accepting our invitation! Thank you, […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":35,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[6639],"tags":[],"authors":[6022,7300],"article-categories":[3591,3572],"doi":[],"class_list":["post-25187","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized","authors-katsoni","authors-tania-atilano","article-categories-interview","article-categories-symposium"],"acf":{"subline":""},"meta_box":{"doi":"10.17176\/20250627-083107-0"},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/voelkerrechtsblog.org\/de\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/25187","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/voelkerrechtsblog.org\/de\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/voelkerrechtsblog.org\/de\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/voelkerrechtsblog.org\/de\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/35"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/voelkerrechtsblog.org\/de\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=25187"}],"version-history":[{"count":4,"href":"https:\/\/voelkerrechtsblog.org\/de\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/25187\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":25195,"href":"https:\/\/voelkerrechtsblog.org\/de\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/25187\/revisions\/25195"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/voelkerrechtsblog.org\/de\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=25187"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/voelkerrechtsblog.org\/de\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=25187"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/voelkerrechtsblog.org\/de\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=25187"},{"taxonomy":"authors","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/voelkerrechtsblog.org\/de\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/authors?post=25187"},{"taxonomy":"article-categories","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/voelkerrechtsblog.org\/de\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/article-categories?post=25187"},{"taxonomy":"doi","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/voelkerrechtsblog.org\/de\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/doi?post=25187"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}